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Relational Life Therapy And The Art Of Repair with Jessica Johnson

• Catia Hernandez Holm

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We explore Relational Life Therapy with Jess Johnson and show how conflict, when repaired with care, builds deeper trust. We share the harmony-disharmony-repair cycle, the “whoosh” of reactivity, and practical steps to shift from the adaptive child to the wise adult.

• why harmony without repair stays shallow
• how the nervous system shapes connection and conflict
• adaptive child, wounded child, and wise adult explained
• noticing the “whoosh” as a cue to pause
• relational mindfulness as a daily practice
• what real repair looks like in words and actions
• balancing independence and interdependence
• moving beyond skills to true transformation
• healthy self-esteem as I’m no better and no less
• one simple weekly practice to track self-esteem swings

Show Guest:

Jess is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Associate, Licensed Professional Counselor Associate and Certified Relational Life Therapy Couple's Coach. Working out of New Braunfels, TX she helps individuals and couples struggling in their relationships access healing through connection with an invitation to explore relational patterns and learn real repair. Her lived experience as a woman, wife, mother, daughter in a military family and sister to a special needs loved one, has ingrained in her a deep knowing that: every human has worth; mistakes are opportunities to grow; we're all just doing our best, and sometimes we need help. In a space where no topic is off the table and everyone is given grace to be messy and imperfect, her clients learn to love in a radical way and dare to connect deeply.

You can connect with Jess at: 

Knowing Connection Therapy, or on Instagram - Jess Talks Relationships


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Show hosted by:

Catia Hernandez Holm, LMFT-A

Supervised by Susan Gonzales, LMFT-S, LPC-S


You can connect with Catia at couchtimewithcat.com

and

To become a client visit- catiaholm.com

Speaker 2:

Welcome to Couch Time with Cat, your safe place for real conversation and a gentle check-in. KWVH presents Couch Time with Cat.

Speaker 1:

Hi friends, and welcome to Couch Time with Cat, mental wellness with a friendly voice. I'm Cat, therapist, best-selling author, TEDx speaker, and endurance athlete. But most of all, I'm a wife, mama, and someone who deeply believes that people are good and healing is possible. Here in the hill country of Wimberley, Texas, I've built my life and practice around one purpose to make mental wellness feel accessible, compassionate, and real. This show is for those moments when life feels heavy, when you're craving clarity, or when you just need to hear you're not alone. Each week we'll explore the terrain of mental wellness through stories, reflections, research, and tools you can bring into everyday life. Think of it as a conversation between friends, rooted in science, guided by heart, and grounded in the belief that healing does not have to feel clinical. It can feel like sitting on a couch with someone who gets it. So whether you're driving, walking, cooking, or simply catching your breath, you're welcome here. This is your space to feel seen, supported, and reminded of your own strength. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in. Sometimes the hardest moment in a relationship isn't the big betrayal or the loud argument. It's the silence afterward. It's when someone says, I'm fine, and you know they're not. One pulls away, the other chases, one shuts down, the other explodes. But what if those very moments, the ones that hurt the most, could become opportunities for healing? You're listening to Couch Time with Cat. I'm Cat, and today we're talking about relational life therapy. How the ways we relate hold keys to healing and growth. Have you ever seen a couple in a movie and they look like they're strangers? Every conversation leads to tears or silence. They don't know it, but their fights are about who did the dishes or who spent what. But what they're really about is being unseen, unheard, or unloved. And isn't that the story for so many of us? We long to be understood, to be met, to be safe enough to show the messy, tender parts of ourselves and still be loved there. But life and old wounds have taught us how to armor up, how to disconnect, and how to protect ourselves. Relational life therapy, or RLT, invites us to lay that armor down. It's the work of coming home to each other and to ourselves again and again. You're listening to Couchtime with Cat, and today we're joined by Jess Johnson, who brings this approach to life with honesty, heart, and real tools for change. Neuroscience tells us that our brains are wired for connection. Through systems like oxytocin and mirror neurons, we're constantly reading and responding to one another. When we feel seen and safe, our nervous systems settle. When we feel rejected or ignored, they flare. I think I felt that flare last weekend. Attachment science adds another truth. Rupture and repair aren't signs of dysfunction, they're signs of depth. True intimacy doesn't mean never fighting. It means knowing how to find each other again afterward. Relational life therapy, founded by Terry Real, builds on this. It helps people move from what's wrong with me to how did I learn to relate this way? And what else is possible? My guest today is Jessica Johnson. Though her clients know her as Jess, she's a licensed marriage and family therapist associate, a licensed professional counselor associate, and a certified relational life therapy couples coach. Working out in New Bromfels, Texas, New Bromfels with 1S, Jess helps individuals and couples access healing through connection with a radical invitation to explore patterns and learn real repair. My God, that already sounds so nice. Her lived experience as a woman, wife, mother, daughter in a military family, and a sister to a special needs loved one grounds her deeply. In Jess's world, no topic is off the table, and every mistake is an invitation to grow. Jess. Hi, Jess. Welcome to Couch Time with Cat. Thank you. I'm so glad you're here.

Speaker 2:

I'm happy to be here. It's a beautiful day.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God. I'm so glad that you know this stuff, honestly. It feels like you have this huge toolbox that we're about to unpack. How would you describe relational life therapy to somebody who is just learning about it?

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm. I think most people come to find out about relational life therapy through probably couples' work. Like they're having some difficult time in their relationship. And that's how I came to it at first as well, because I knew that I wanted to work with couples in my therapy practice. I've seen how essential that relationship is to not only just family life, but our quality of life across the board in work, in just happiness, and how good or not good our day feels. So that's how I found it initially. And that's what it is essentially. It's a model for therapy, couples' work, um, or individuals just looking to learn more about themselves and their relationships. But since studying it, since using these principles in my own life, I feel so strongly that it's also just a way of being, a way of living, a way to approach the world with more compassion and less contempt.

Speaker 1:

So relational life therapy is a framework, a structure where people in romantic relationships can come together and strengthen their relationship. Is that right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. They one fundamental principle about relational life therapy um is they stress the the cycle of relationships that all relationships go through, whether it's work, family, home, romantic, you have harmony, you have disharmony, and you have repair. But our society definitely is not teaching us about this. And if anything, we're picking up on what's being modeled. And usually that repair piece is missing. We tend to either be in harmony, everything's okay, it's fine, or disharmony, everything feels terrible, but it's just crushing and hard. Um I think probably we we allow that repair process to just be time or to be going along with something where our heart is not really in it. And I I do think that relational life therapy emphasizes and normalizes this cycle of harmony and disharmony, and repair teaches couples how to understand that.

Speaker 1:

What are some of the relational patterns you see most often in your work? So the ones that keep people looping. Because it does feel like a merry-go-round of dysfunction sometimes. Yeah. What kind of patterns do you see?

Speaker 2:

I think I also want to say like relational life therapy is a little bit different from other couples' models. And one thing that we like to say is other therapies will teach you skills, and we do as well, but also we're gonna work with the part of you that is not gonna use those skills, that just doesn't want to. Because in that crunch of a moment when you feel really upset about what you just saw, what you just heard, we're not in a relational state. In that moment, we go to a protective state. And that state is not relationally empowering, it is individually empowering. And that fundamental shift, I think, really takes relational life therapy and and sets it apart from almost every other model of couples therapy.

Speaker 1:

That sounds so my face is lighting up, listener, because I know I can think of, you know, any argument that I've had with anybody, whether it's my husband or a friend or a parent or a child. You know, it doesn't, you know, we're in a relationship with all sorts of people. When we are in an argument, or when I'm in an argument, the last thing I want to do is relate. I normally just want to win. Right. Or exactly. I want somebody to say, I'm so sorry, you're 100% right. Or like, please forgive me. How can I make it better? Like these what I'm really craving in that moment are these big blankets of make it okay. And that is a part of me that's really not interested in meeting somebody halfway or really having empathy in the other person.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And that makes sense, right? If we're not growing up with a healthy model and acceptance that conflicts happen and it's natural and it's okay, of course our nervous systems are like, oh my gosh, this conflict is happening. Just make it okay.

Speaker 1:

Let's talk about conflict for a second. A lot of people think conflict is the worst. Conflict means we're not meant to be together. Conflict means we have a bad relationship. What do you say about conflict?

Speaker 2:

It's so needed, right? Why?

Speaker 1:

No, I don't know why. Just kidding, I know why, but tell me why. Tell us why.

Speaker 2:

Because you're two different people. You have lived different lives. So every moment of every day, we are making meaning of each present moment that we're in with our own history-colored glasses.

Speaker 1:

Say more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I have lived my life, I have been in relationships and experiences, and I've seen things modeled. And in my brain, in my limbic system, I hold emotional knowings about conflict, if it's safe or not. Because what if someone grew up in a family where if there was conflict, then they just were stonewalled for the next three days. They didn't nobody came and talked to them for the next three days. That young child is learning if I speak up and and create some conflict or just some disruption between the two of us, that means something really painful for me.

Speaker 1:

Is around the corner.

Speaker 2:

Right.

unknown:

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, or immediately right after. Yeah. So we in relational life therapy, we do parts work and we talk about these parts of ourselves. So we grow up, we experience things, and because life is imperfect, because we're all imperfect, we feel pain, we feel hurt, we become wounded in ways. If it's really drastic, maybe there's even trauma. So these traumas, these wounds, these distresses of life begins to form this wounded child. And we have to live through these things so we learn to adapt. These adaptations form our adaptive strategies. Our adaptive child begins to form and figure out ways to survive a situation, to get through, to be safe. Um and then our prefrontal cortex comes on and we learn more. We learn language and relationship skills. And when our brain is all integrated and we're in a safe enough space, we have access to all of that. We can feel our feelings, we can have words for it, it's flexible, you can understand nuance, and that is what RLT would call your wise adult part of you. So that's the only part of you that is capable of intimacy with another person and wants it. But when stress comes, when conflict comes, that prefrontal cortex begins to go offline, we revert back into this limbic part of our brain. Guess what strategies we're using in that part of our brain? Our adaptations.

Speaker 1:

Wow. So it's like we, our brain, we it develops and we have all these different tools at our disposal. But when we're triggered, those tools kind of go out the window, and all we're left with is our very few kind of primitive adaptations that helped us get through when we were younger.

Speaker 2:

Right. And that part of us we need, we need to have a part of our brain that senses threat so that we can respond and react. And if there's a car coming at us, we don't have time to think and you know, ask ourselves, how do we feel about this? We just need to respond. But when you talk about relationships and if we're feeling stress in our relationships, if we can't hang on to knowing that this is someone I love who I'm talking to, if that stress part becomes really, really loud, then our lid gets flipped, we go adaptive, and adaptive is protective.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah. I get that big time. And then it's two adaptive parts just talking to each other. So it's really like eight-year-old and eight-year-old.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 1:

Talking to each other or stonewalling each other, or you know, just trying to make it through the day.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

And then that's where we get stuck.

Speaker 2:

Right. So that's the disharmony. There you are.

Speaker 1:

Eight-year-old to eight-year-old brain.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. My God, that sounds so hurtful. Yeah. If we don't see it happening to also, then we just stay there. So this harmony-disharmony repair cycle happens maybe ten times in a single conversation, and it can also happen over years, too.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that is so helpful to know. Ten times in a conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

What do you mean?

Speaker 2:

Well, it can be anything. It can be, oh, what it can be, what did that look mean? What did that tone mean? And all of these things are are going straight into our mid-brain, this implicit part of our brain that's trying to assess and make meaning. Again, that you have those history-colored glasses.

Speaker 1:

I hear you talking a lot about brain and a lot of scientific words. For somebody who is just tuning in and just new to therapy and thinking, good God, like it kind of feels like when you're going to make a new recipe and you need all new kitchen tools and you're like, oh, forget it. I'll just order in. You know, it's just even the acquisition of the tools feels, oh my God, too much. Too much. So you just don't do it at all. What would you say to somebody who is listening, new to therapy, thinking, ooh, I do get stuck in my relationships, but oh my God, limbic, prefrontal, la. I can't handle all that. So I guess I'll just gonna be stuck.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Here's a good word.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Whoosh.

Speaker 1:

Okay, what is that?

Speaker 2:

When you feel reactive, when you feel triggered, that's all you need to know. You just need to know whoosh. Can you notice it? What does that feel like? What's happening in your body when I say the word whoosh?

Speaker 1:

When you when you feel a whoosh. When I feel a whoosh. What is a whoosh?

Speaker 2:

It's the visceral reaction that we have when ah, I didn't like how you just said that. Oh, so you just said activated or offended.

Speaker 1:

Why are we all so easily offended these days? Oh my God. Okay. So you get offended. How dare you? You get a how dare you. That's a whoosh. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Speaker 2:

It kind of snaps you into this place.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so Jess, I hear you saying limbic system, prefrontal cortex, midbrain, all these things that I feel like I need a dictionary for. And for somebody who's just tuning in, just new to therapy, feels like, ooh, I am stuck in some of my relationships, but all that sounds like way too much work, way too intimidating. What can you say to that person listening? How would you encourage them?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that is a lot to think about. It's a lot to have on your mind. And I guess my perspective is as the therapist, I have that on my mind. My clients don't have to worry about knowing these words, having the language. They just get to come into the office and I have this model, I have this frame of mind. What we're going to be talking about between the two or the three of us, whether it's an individual or a couple, is what happens between you two when you get stuck? What do you do and say? And then how do you respond to that? And then you hear that response, and then what happens? So we're just talking about the behaviors really. And you get to get a sense of the more the more. The more this happens, then the more that happens, and the more and the more, and we just get stuck and we just eventually quit it.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Oh man, I can feel that for sure. So what you're saying is the client doesn't have to learn all these terms. You are, as the therapist, are taking control of this situation. All the all the clients have to do is show up and share their story, and you're gonna help them learn how to relate in a different way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. RLT is very directive, I would say, on the side of the therapist. Um the first skill, I guess, that I would be teaching a couple is what's just called relational mindfulness. So as we're talking about this pattern that happens between the two of you, and in my mind, I'm starting to get a picture of the adaptations that are being used. I might be asking you questions like not only what happened, what did you do and say, but what were you feeling? What was happening in your body? Did you notice sensations? So, along with what you do as your adaptive child, I want to help clients learn what that feels like. So then they can practice what's known as relational mindfulness. And that is just knowing what part of ourselves we are in. So if I can get a sense of what it feels like when we're in conflict and I'm in my adaptive child, does it feel tense? Do I feel fiery? All of those sensations, then I begin to pick up on those and I'm practicing relational mindfulness and I'm noticing how I'm feeling and then what's happening. I'm also noticing the times and spaces that I feel open and safe and connected. And what does that feel like? So, what is your wise adult when you're in your body in your wise adult, what are you feeling? What are you noticing? It's usually a very different sensation. And clients pretty quickly start to get a really good view of I I can sense now when I start to move out of my wise adult and into my adaptive child.

Speaker 1:

You're listening to Couch Time with Cat. I'm Cat, and today we're talking about relational life therapy with Jess Johnson. And remember, you can leave an anonymous question for me to answer on the show by calling or texting 956-249-7930. Jess, so earlier you were talking about harmony, disharmony, repair. And we talked about how conflict isn't necessarily bad, but it can bring us closer together. Can you walk us through what repair looks like? Or I guess, I guess even taking it back a little more. What is repair and what can it look like?

Speaker 2:

Repair is really beautiful because it can be so many things. And what makes repair really critical, especially in a long-term intimate relationship, is that's where your intimacy comes from. I think people get into this thought that if we're in harmony with each other all the time, oh, we must be really intimate and our relationship is great. When are you though? Because if we're not discussing our differences of opinion, what we do or don't like, and bumping up against all of these ways that we're two different people experiencing the world in a different way, how intimate is that really? So repair is the tool that helps bridge the disconnection while still saying, and I love you.

Speaker 1:

It feels like the friction has a purpose. So when you're in harmony, it's sweet, but it's not necessarily indicative of a good, deep, strong relationship.

Speaker 2:

Not without navigating repair well. When you navigate repair well, that is building trust. And so when you're in harmony again, it's a deeper sense of the harmony. You have a deeper knowing of one another, and it feels safer to move into disharmony. If we're really valuing harmony over disharmony, we become so fearful and avoidant of disharmony. But when we can trust in ourselves and this relationship to move through repair well, then we're free to be more of ourselves with each other because we don't have to have that same incredible fear of the disharmony. We know that it's natural, we know that it will come, and we know how to repair, move out of that and get through it and be okay.

Speaker 1:

It's not all gonna be a Hallmark movie. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I feel like we're sold that it should be and that when there is disharmony, you may as well get divorced. Like it jumps very quickly to, or if you're not married, just end it. What is the point? You're too different. What is the balance between this is a huge question, but what is the balance between individuality? So being um like rustic individualism, being interdependent, like in a healthy way.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker 1:

You know, we don't want to be codependent. But I feel like what you're saying in harmony, disharmony, and repair is you're interdependent and you're trusting in that and you're okay with that and you're settling into it. But that feels riskier, at least to my nervous system, than to just be siloed and be like, I'm gonna be okay because I can take care of myself and I'll take care of you, no problem. But if I lean into you to take care of me, oh no, that's where it gets like a little too risky for me. Like, even just saying that, like, that is something I personally have to work on because I I tend to think, nope, I've got it. I'm good. I'm good. But do you need anything? Yeah, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2:

I'll give you what you're asking for. Sure, no problem.

Speaker 1:

Happy time gonna speak up. Oh, yeah. Oh, hell no. So, how do you teach that to clients, like that balance between being strong and independent and being able to soothe your own nervous system, but also leaning into the risk and leaning into the beauty, because right, with risk becomes beauty of that relationship.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. Um with every couple, I always begin with what do you want in your relationship? If this time was to be well spent, what do you want more of? And that question guides our work because who's for me to say what level of intimacy a couple should have? If a couple wants to be fine, being fine, then that's what they want. But if a couple is wanting real, honest and deep intimacy, then we have to start asking the question is if I'm going along and and meeting your needs and adjusting to you, but I'm not speaking up, what is that costing me? Is that actually getting me what I said I wanted to get?

Speaker 1:

Oh golly, Jess, that's too good.

Speaker 2:

It's hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, man. Yeah, but I love the way you framed that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, for transformation to take place, and this is another thing I believe strongly about RLT. So if you learn a skill about how to speak and talk in a relationship, and you use that skill, it will maybe work. Like maybe the fight will end and everything. But the patterns of how you relate might not change. And you might feel like I have to know a skill to know how to approach this so that it doesn't go into conflict, so that I can be okay. But this side of things brings us into real transformation where we can dance with each other. I still have the skills about how to be in a relationship, but I also am not relying on that skill working a hundred percent of the time because it just won't. It's gonna work on a Tuesday and it's not gonna work when you try it again on a Thursday because we're gonna be different, our partner's gonna be different, depending on sleep, stress, hormones, all of these other factors. So rather than try and rely on this list of skills, the most important thing for me to know in a relationship is again, what part of myself am I in? How can I get to my wise adult space that wants to be in connection with this person? And as we practice this in partnership over time, then that becomes a state that you get to more often, you're in there longer, it's more trusting. So it really is transformational rather than trying to just have it be a band-aid.

Speaker 1:

There's no bag of tricks. You're really changing your relationship at the foundation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you really are.

Speaker 1:

You're listening to Couch Time with Cat, and I'm Cat, and today we're exploring relational life therapy with Jess Johnson. Don't forget you can leave me an anonymous question at 956-249-7930, and I might answer it on a future episode. So Jess, once people begin to notice our patterns and they begin to repair with intention, what comes next?

Speaker 2:

I think you find some joy, some playfulness, honestly. Because we no longer have to be in these rigid roles for our relationship to be okay and function well. So you just get flexibility, you get opportunity. To create and be intentional about your relationship. And I think it starts with your relationship and then I think it branches out, honestly. Like relationships with your kids, with coworkers. This piece of being able to be in a wise adult space. And when I'm speaking, I'm speaking because I want to make things better. Rather than I need you to hear me, or I feel hopeless, this isn't gonna work. I I can come up if I'm one down in my self-esteem. And I can bring myself down if I'm in a one-up and superior place with another person. And that place from healthy self-esteem, I'm no better and no less. And also our boundaries are in a good place, so we're connected, and also we're protected from that space that you have a really great opportunity to have genuine and authentic relationships and connections.

Speaker 1:

Jess, what's one practice you would invite listeners to try this week? Something simple but powerful. Oh, what does that mean?

Speaker 2:

So healthy self-esteem says that I'm enough and I matter just because I'm a human being living here on this earth. And that's not generally what our society emphasizes. So outside of that healthy self-esteem place, a lot of our self-esteem sources are external. It's either performance-based self-esteem or it's attribute-based or it's other based. So if I'm trying to base how well I'm doing on my performance, that's really gonna fluctuate if I'm having a good day at work or a bad day. If I'm basing my healthy my self-esteem based on what other people say about me, as long as the compliments are flowing, things are great. But if that ever stops, I'm in trouble. So noticing our sources of self-esteem. When we feel ourselves go up into grandiosity superiority, when we feel ourselves go down into toxic shame.

Speaker 1:

And that will inform how we feel day-to-day, which then informs how we show up in our relationships.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So to have a wise adult ability to be there, we want to be in that healthy self-esteem place. And so getting into a practice of noticing our self our self-esteem and when it goes up and when it goes down is aiding our relational mindfulness, is aiding more awareness towards what part of myself is showing up right now.

Speaker 1:

If today's conversation stirred something in you, take a walk, take a breath, and let it settle. Ask yourself, what hit home today? What am I curious about? What do I want to learn more about? And if this episode spoke to you, share it with someone who might need it too. Jess, thank you for being here. That was amazing. I learned so much. I I can't wait to read more about it, and I hope lots of um listeners start to get curious about it too. If listeners want to connect with you, where can they find you?

Speaker 2:

My website is knowing connection therapy.com, so you can find me there.

Speaker 1:

Friends, I hope you'll check out Jess's work. She is such an asset to the therapy world. And I tell her I wish she could be my therapist all the time, but we're friends, so that can't happen.

Speaker 2:

But it would be fun.

Speaker 1:

But it would be fun. We'll have links in the show notes so you can learn more about her practice and relational life therapy. If today's episode gave you something to think about, share it with a friend and help others find this heart space too. Until then, be good to yourselves. Thank you for spending this time with me. If something from today's conversation resonated, or if you're in a season where support would help, visit me at gatthehollem.com. That's C-A-T-I-A-H-O-L-M.com. You can also leave an anonymous question for the show by calling or texting 956-249-7930. I'd love to hear what's on your heart. If Couch Time with Cat has been meaningful to you, it would mean so much if you'd subscribe, rate, and leave a review. It helps others find us and it grows this community of care. And if you know someone who needs a little light right now, send them this episode. Remind them they're not alone. Until next time, be gentle with yourself. Keep showing up and know I'm right here with you.

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Catia Hernandez Holm

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